The Highest Calling, page 44
PB: It was only very late that Obama recognized that Trump could win. He, like everybody, assumed that Hillary was a strong candidate, that of course she would win. The polls all showed her way ahead. How could the country possibly elect this guy he considered to be a buffoon, a cartoon character, a carnival barker? He said as much at various moments during the campaign. I think it shocked him when it happened, because it told him that the country was not what he thought it was. He then spends the next couple of months during this transition period grappling with why this happened and what it says about him and his presidency.
DR: Presidents usually have a meeting in the Oval Office with their successor: What was it like when Donald Trump came to the Oval Office to meet Obama?
PB: Obama had never actually met Trump in person, ironically, until they sat in the Oval Office following the election in 2016. It would turn out to be a more congenial meeting than either one of them might have expected, but he was definitely not impressed by Trump. He understood that Trump didn’t understand anything. He wasn’t really listening to what Obama was trying to tell him in terms of how to be president or what was going on in the world. Obama tried to be a good sport about it and to be the outgoing president that George W. Bush had been for him. Bush went out of his way to try to help Obama as he came in, to do whatever he could to make him a successful new president. Obama was determined to follow that example, and then found that Trump didn’t want it. Trump’s people were completely uninterested in listening or having any real communication at all.
DR: Final question: What has President Obama done in his retirement to continue his legacy?
PB: His presidential center has done some work on mentoring and issues like voting rights. He has focused a lot on writing his memoir, which is two volumes, and on his business ventures with Netflix. I think he pulled back from the stage, because he didn’t want to give Trump a target. He knew that if he was too visible, too public as an oppositional figure, Trump would relish that. He would love to be able to run against Obama for four years. Then, once Biden came in, Obama likewise didn’t want to do anything to overshadow or get in Biden’s way by being too public. There’s kind of a cost to that, right? We don’t see Obama offering a lot of leadership to the country right now, with the exception of the immediate campaign cycle, when he goes out and campaigns for Democrats. He keeps quiet and lets things happen without being too vocal. He had his time at the top and thinks it’s now time for others.
20 PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP
(b. 1946; president from 2017 to 2021)
When Donald Trump came down the escalator at Trump Tower in 2015, preparing to announce his candidacy for the Republican nomination for president, few political experts took his candidacy seriously.
Trump had never held any government or military positions—unlike every one of the 43 individuals who preceded him in that position. He was in an already crowded field of Republican candidates (ultimately 16 others). He was planning to self-fund his entire campaign. He had no obvious political base. His business career had seen a fair number of failures; his personal life had seen two divorces and a Page Six social life. And he had been a Democrat for much of his life.
But, as is often the case, the pundits had to eat their words.
Donald Trump won the Republican nomination somewhat handily, changed the course of the country’s political dialogue, and ultimately defeated the early odds-on favorite, the former First Lady, Senator, and Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton.
Governing turned out to be a more complicated undertaking. President Trump tried to change the ways of Washington (the “swamp”), and there was clear pushback. He also faced Justice Department and congressional investigations, two impeachments, large White House and cabinet turnover, strong Democratic opposition in Congress (especially to the attempted repeal of Obamacare), resistance from traditional European allies, trade tensions with China, and largely unfavorable media reporting and analysis.
President Trump did get his large tax cuts through Congress, developed closer relations with many Middle East countries, strengthened relations with Israel, and oversaw a reasonably strong U.S. economy (with no appreciable inflation) until COVID-19 dominated the country’s focus, when the pandemic essentially closed many parts of the country and economy.
And while vaccines for COVID were successfully developed in record speed, few Americans were inoculated before President Trump—who was seriously infected with the virus—left office.
Leaving office did not occur in the traditional manner. President Trump contested the results of the 2020 election, claiming that there had been fraud in many of the states he lost. No challenges by President Trump or his supporters could prove fraud to the satisfaction of any court, though that did not stop him from working to rally his supporters to challenge the outcome.
The violent events around and in the Capitol on January 6, 2021, shocked Americans and others around the world. That violence did not change the election’s outcome, and President Trump left office peacefully on January 20, on schedule, and without any personal contact with his successor (though he did leave the traditional welcoming letter).
I have known President Trump for a number of years, but not as a business partner or political supporter. When my parents retired and moved to what I have called a suburb of Baltimore—West Palm Beach, Florida—I would often host family celebrations at a private club, Mar-a-Lago, though I was not a member. (The food and service were good, and it was convenient.) At those times, I saw Donald Trump, who was frequently at the club, often taking pictures with the club’s guests, including mine. On one occasion, he said he knew of my investment firm.
A few months later, near the end of 2014, when I was looking for someone to interview at the Economic Club of Washington, a few members suggested Donald Trump, whose television show The Apprentice was popular and was likely to help draw guests to the club’s dinner event. (I had never watched the show.)
Donald Trump accepted the invitation, and I found myself with him in the green room right before the interview. He said that I could ask him if he was going to run for president. I later did, and he said that he was seriously thinking of doing so, to my surprise.
When Donald Trump did become president, I saw him from time to time in my role as chairman of the Kennedy Center or as chairman of the Smithsonian Institution. And once, during COVID, I did a Zoom interview with him for the Economic Club of Washington.
Since he left office, I did not have much contact with him, other than to see him in an effort to get an interview for this book. Getting an agreement to do the interview was less of a challenge than finding a time.
Ultimately, on May 2, 2024, before his trial appearance date that day, I did have a chance to do an interview by phone in the time allotted. But I did not want that interview, and my own thoughts, to be the sole material in this book on President Trump. So I have included as well an interview that I did with Maggie Haberman, a New York Times reporter who covered Donald Trump in his New York career and in his presidency.
Maggie Haberman managed to cover Trump for the Times in an unusual way. For personal reasons, she decided to continue living in New York and report remotely, coming to Washington on occasion. That formula would seem to be a difficult one for developing sources, but she seemed to have no trouble doing so. And while she does not, like any good reporter, reveal her confidential sources, it would appear that she had no problem getting direct access to President Trump.
While her New York Times stories could rarely be said to be favorable to the image that he was trying to convey, President Trump seemed more than willing to talk to her. President Trump—unlike some presidents—seemed willing to talk to those who were not likely to write stories he would like. Why did he do the interviews—and even allow some to be taped? There are many theories. Mine is that Donald Trump deeply believes in what he says and feels he can convince even the most skeptical of reporters and journalists. My interview with Maggie Haberman was done at the New-York Historical Society on May 13, 2023.
Since my interview with President Trump and my interview with Maggie Haberman, he was convicted on 34 felony counts in a New York State court. The impact on the upcoming election is clearly unknown, but it is already clear that President Trump’s supporters do not seem deterred by the convictions, viewing them to be the results of a “political” prosecution.
* * *
DAVID M. RUBENSTEIN (DR): When you ran for president in 2016, did you honestly expect to get the nomination? Or did you think a more traditional candidate would actually prevail?
DONALD J. TRUMP (DT): As a student of history, you assume that it can’t be done, because there’s never been someone other than a general or a politician elected president. So there’s never been anything like this. Bottom line, did I expect to win? I guess so, or I probably wouldn’t have run. I’m a positive person. I don’t like doing things that aren’t doable. I felt there was a good chance that I could win. I was very well-known, had a tremendously successful television show for many years. I thought I had a good chance.
DR: For a long time in New York, you had been a Democrat. What led you to become a Republican?
DT: I was a Democrat and not loving the policies, but in New York everybody was a Democrat, not that much different from what it is now, but somewhat different. As I started to go out and look at the world, I started not liking the policies of Democrats.
DR: When you met President Obama in the Oval Office after your election in 2016, was that the first time that the enormity of the job and the responsibilities really hit you? Or did you realize how significant the job was well before that?
DT: I would say I realized it when they announced that I had won, because as you know, Hillary was favored to win. I felt we were doing very well. I’ll never forget, I had a big rally in Michigan that night, the night prior to the election. The level of enthusiasm was incredible, as it is now. I felt that. The big thing was when I heard the words “Donald Trump will be the next president of the United States.” I was working so hard. I did rallies that were so packed and so enthusiastic, and I said: “Why would I lose?” Michigan hadn’t been won by the Republicans in many years. And I won. I did a rally there where we had so many people who turned up, I said, “why would I lose Michigan? Why would I lose?”
DR: What about the job of being president did you most enjoy, and what did you least enjoy?
DT: There’s so much you can do. It’s just incredible. It’s a powerful presidency. If you know what you’re doing, there’s so many things that you can do: the rebuilding of the military, which you do just with a magic wand. The trillions of dollars that can be spent on doing things that are good things, very good things, not wasteful things like we’re doing now. It’s horrible.
But there are so many things you can do. I could give you a list, but one of the things I felt very strongly about were the tax cuts. I actually think that regulation cuts were more important than the tax cuts. They were both important. They worked beautifully together.
DR: How did you find dealing with members of Congress?
DT: There were some that were an absolute pleasure to deal with. They wanted things to happen. There were others—and even in my own party, dealing with certain people was really not fun—they were people that didn’t want to get things done, or didn’t know how to get things done. Dealing with the other side, from day one, it was an obstacle, and it has been that way ever since.
DR: Did you have people you thought would be good role models for you as president?
DT: I was a fan of Ronald Reagan, except on trade. He was not good on trade. He really allowed Japan to come in and take over the auto industry, and various other things. But overall the one that I felt most strongly about was Ronald Reagan. I thought he was very good. I thought he created the picture of a president. He was under siege. I was under siege, I think, more than any other president. But Ronald Reagan was under siege for seven years, with the gun situation and Oliver North. It went on for years. It’s like quicksand. Some of those things, you get into them and they’re like quicksand. I’m sort of a student of a lot of presidents.
DR: As you look back on your presidency, do you have any regrets or things you wish you had done differently?
DT: No, except for people. I ended up working them out through mere force of personality, but I had some people that I would have never put in if I had known them better. I was never into Washington. I was not a member of Washington society. I knew very little about Washington, the mechanics for the people. I relied on other people to give me people. Now I know. I think I know everybody about as well as anybody. I know the good, the bad, and the ugly. But I was not somebody that would walk in and say, I really like this one. Now I know everyone. That’s a tremendous advantage, because I had to rely on a lot of people. Some of them, RINOs [Republicans in name only], are people that I learned not to respect too much as time went by, and I was relying on them to put people in charge of intelligence and lots of other things.
The big thing that I would say would be that it worked out because we had such a great economy, such a great military, we largely defeated ISIS, we got into no new war—so many different things, we could go on forever. But I did that through force. I had some people that were bad. That happens with all presidents, no matter what. You know about people, you can choose a person, you can guarantee that person is going to be great, and that person turns out to be a disaster. And somebody else that you didn’t think would be so good turns out to be a superstar. I had a lot of great people, phenomenal people that will come back with me if I’m re-elected, but there were some people that were absolutely terrible. I got rid of them. Look, many of the people in the Biden administration should be fired immediately. How do you not fire the generals and the various people that were in charge of Afghanistan, as an example?
DR: One of the things you wanted to do was end Obamacare. The Republicans on Capitol Hill never came up with a plan to do that. Do you think it’s realistic to try to change it now?
DT: It’s lousy. It’s not good. John McCain was a disaster. He campaigned on getting rid of Obamacare. Then he cast the vote against ending it. The famous thumbs down. McCain gave it a thumbs down. And everybody was stunned. We had a lot of good things, much better than Obamacare, but we didn’t really put a lot of time into it until we got it terminated—what’s the use? McCain did the country a tremendous disservice when he turned it down.
DR: Were there things you learned the first term that would make your second term better?
DT: I had a tremendously successful first term, but the one thing that I would say that I learned was people. I would put different people in certain positions. I pretty much already know the people that I’d be going in with, and they’re fantastic people. Most of these people were tested under fire. It’s all about people. If you put a good person at the top of whatever agency, these big behemoths—you put somebody good in charge, it’ll run well. It’s not much different from business, if you have somebody good in charge of a specific business, if you own a series of businesses, and you have somebody great at one, and not so good at another—it’s all about the person. That’s what it’s about, and I know great people, which we didn’t know before.
DR: Why do you really want to be president for another four years? You could spend your time playing golf, enjoying your grandchildren, being at Mar-a-Lago.
DT: I wanted it in 2016, and nobody much complained. The Republicans aren’t allowed to complain, but I had a great victory in 2016. I think it’s been marked down as an excellent presidency, really excellent, sometimes better than that. The people say some great things. I had a great four years, a very successful four years, despite opposition. Very few people could have lasted, I will tell you.
DR: You don’t seem to tire out. As a young person, were you a good athlete? How do you get this physical strength to keep doing this?
DT: I had parents that lasted a long time. They were great. I have one friend whose mother died at 49 of a heart attack and the father died at 49 of a heart attack. That’s not a good sign.
DR: Is the presidency as lonely a job, as many people have said?
DT: It’s a very lonely job. I love the White House, but the White House has been called many things by many different presidents, some of them not very complimentary. I think the White House is incredible. But it is a lonely job. You’re all by yourself up there. Two Christmases and New Year’s Eves together, I didn’t leave, I stayed in the White House. I was in the White House almost alone, other than massive numbers of security. You look outside, and you see the number of security people in trees, with rifles at level, which you’ve never even seen before, these rifles. It was sort of wild. But I’m in there, and I’m saying, wow, that had to be there because of certain things that were happening in other countries. Like when you look at what’s happening right now with the campus protests, the president should be out there. You’ve got to be there. I had a couple of occasions where holidays came and I was there. It can be a very lonely job, absolutely.
DR: Did you expect that getting the nomination this second time running for president to be as easy as it was?
DT: Normally, if you were like a normal guy running for president, the campaign would be going on right now. I’d be talking to you as a candidate for the nomination, because it still would have a long way to go. Were you surprised that I was able to get it and get it that quickly?
DR: I didn’t think it would happen that quickly.
