The Trump Tapes, page 13
COMMENTARY: Mark Esper, Trump’s latest secretary of defense, replaced Jim Mattis. Esper kept a low profile but was one of the most experienced defense secretaries in modern times. Shortly after the 2020 election, Trump angrily fired Esper.
BW:
Do you think there’s too much concentration of power in the presidency now?
TRUMP:
No.
BW:
I’m astounded, going back—I’ve done nine presidents, sir.
TRUMP:
Right.
BW:
And power grows, from Nixon to you. And I wonder is there too much power concentrated?
TRUMP:
No. I think you have a lot of checks and balances. I think that you have to be smart. Look, you have to be smart. Not easy to be president, you know? I went through 15 debates. I won every one of them. I went through everything and—you ever see the debate, the polls on debates? I won every single debate. You’ve got to know what you’re doing. You have to have a position where somebody can make a decision, Bob. Otherwise you’re just going to be a rudderless ship.
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
Oh, I see—so you think that the presidency is more powerful now than it ever was?
BW:
Oh, yes, sir. Particularly—
TRUMP:
Is that because of the person?
BW:
Because I think this is true—both the left and the right, Democrats, Republicans—
TRUMP:
They fight each other?
BW:
—they have a reverence for the exercise of presidential power, particularly if it solves big problems. And that reverence leads them to, oh, okay, the president has decided—we’re going to—Now, people fight you on things, but—
TRUMP:
Well, you’ve seen Mitch say he’s not going to take up a bill unless he has the approval of the president. Did you see that? This is Mitch, and Mitch is a pro. We’re not dealing with a baby, right? But Mitch has said oftentimes—and I’ve seen other senators say—you know, they’re against something. They’ll say, I’m only going to approve it if the president says to approve it. So I don’t know—is that respect for me or is that respect for the office?
BW:
What’s your answer?
TRUMP:
I don’t know. I have no answer. But I know it happens.
BW:
When you come in here, you realize you have extraordinary power?
TRUMP:
Do you mean because of the office or because of me?
BW:
Both. They’ve converged, haven’t they?
TRUMP:
I don’t know. I think the wrong person wouldn’t have much power as president, and I think the right person possibly would. Meaning a certain type of person possibly would. But I understand what you’re saying.
BW:
What do you feel when some of the generals tell you about Iran? That well it’s really a pissant problem and it’s not something that we have to worry about?
TRUMP:
I don’t view Iran as a problem like I do others. Look, I think—we can have a very good relationship with China, but then on the other hand I look at them building an airplane a day and a ship a week and I say, this is a behemoth. What I’m doing with tariffs has crippled them. Crippled them. It’s not the same country. What I did to Iran, I mean, Iran is not the same. Once I terminated that deal and I put the strongest sanctions in the history of the country on—they have no money. They want to borrow money. Now Obama made a horrible deal. Don’t forget, that deal ends in four years. If that deal—what kind of a deal is that?
BW:
That’s another thing I want to walk through with your people. Who’s your—again, in the second chair—
TRUMP:
You can speak to Robert O’Brien, very good guy.
COMMENTARY: Robert O’Brien, a lawyer, author, and former international hostage negotiator, was Trump’s fourth national security adviser.
BW:
Yes, okay, your new national security adviser.
TRUMP:
He’s a very good guy. You know why I like him?
BW:
I’m going to quote you to him.
TRUMP:
He was a great hostage negotiator—38 and 0.
BW:
Yes, he did that, didn’t he.
TRUMP:
I mean, I’m 38 and 0 with him. We got every hostage. Zero, we never paid a cent. But anyway, no, Robert’s good. Robert’s somebody I think you could speak to.
BW:
Okay. I’m going to quote you to him.
TRUMP:
I think you could speak to Mike Pompeo. Doing a good job.
BW:
Yes. I want the full story.
TRUMP:
Yeah. No, Mike is good. But—
BW:
You know what the historians talk about? History’s clock. Have you ever heard this term?
TRUMP:
No. No.
BW:
And Barbara Tuchman, back doing the book on World War I and the causes and how it was an accident, wrote that “The old order was dying. On history’s clock, there was a new order coming in.” You ought to put up history’s clock here, because history—and I say this all the time—history’s clock was kind of ticking along in 2016. No one knew where it was going. The old order—
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
—the Democrats and the Republicans did not come up with a plan or a strategy. And you knew who came along and stole history’s clock? Donald Trump.
TRUMP:
I guess—yeah. I, you’re looking at him.
BW:
Donald Trump.
TRUMP:
Well—
BW:
And I say that, and people don’t like that. I say, look guys, that’s what happened.
COMMENTARY: I wanted to know Trump’s view on nuclear weapons.
BW:
Doesn’t it give you the chills when they come in and say, here are the options, Mr. President?
TRUMP:
Yeah. Yeah. You only hope you don’t have to use them. You’re talking about people.
BW:
Yeah. God help us.
TRUMP:
You only hope you don’t have to use them.
BW:
After you’d been in office a year, NSC meeting, and you’re complaining about the allies and all the money we’re spending.
TRUMP:
Right.
BW:
And Mattis, according to the notes, is quite upset about this. And you’re saying, why are we doing this? Right?
TRUMP:
Yeah. On numerous occasions about different places.
BW:
Yes. Always. It’s a constant refrain. And he finally says, Mr. President, we’re doing this in order to prevent World War III.
TRUMP:
Mm-hmm.
BW:
What’d you think about that?
TRUMP:
I don’t remember him ever saying that. He may have thought it, and he may have thought it was good—
BW:
I think he said it.
TRUMP:
But the problem—
BW:
At least it’s in notes.
TRUMP:
Yeah. I don’t think it helps in preventing World War III, but when you have wealthy countries that laugh at us behind our back because we’re paying for their military, I think it’s ridiculous. They respect us more now than they’ve ever respected us. These same countries—look, I raised $530 billion over the weekend. You know that? NATO.
BW:
Yes. Right. [laughs]
TRUMP:
A hundred and thirty now. And $400 over the next two years. $400 billion. Not—
BW:
Do you think money makes that much difference in politics now?
TRUMP:
Yeah. Which way? You mean running for office?
BW:
Yeah, and getting all this free media. It’s not as if—
TRUMP:
So, so they said 97 percent of the stories on the news now are Trump or Trump-related. Ninety-seven percent. If a plane goes down someplace with 500 people on board, they don’t even cover it anymore. It’s all got to be Trump or Trump-related. Look, Hillary Clinton spent four times what I spent. And we beat her, okay? So who’s going to get the nomination? A tough one. Toughest one you’ve ever—
BW:
Isn’t it interesting?
TRUMP:
It’s a tough one. Nobody knows. I mean, when I see Buttigieg [pronounces it Bood-edge-edge] he looks, I say, Alfred E. Neuman, right? But when I see him—somebody said they think he’s going to make it. You know, you sort of dream about that. Like, nothing. He’s like nothing.
BW:
Okay. Now here’s, last question, big—
TRUMP:
Be very interesting. When you have an idea, let me know?
BW:
—the big, big important thought. I’m looking at how you operate, and I say one of the keys is that—
TRUMP:
Oh, this just came out, look.
BW:
What’s this? Latest poll?
TRUMP:
Just came out.
BW:
Plus nine in Wisconsin, huh.
TRUMP:
Look at these, how nice. Look at that. That was over the last week. This just came out yesterday or today.
BW:
Yeah. But these polls mean nothing. You know that. Because that’s not—
TRUMP:
No, but you know what they are? I know, but they’re swing states.
BW:
What matters? November.
TRUMP:
No, no, I know that. But still.
BW:
Yeah. It’s interesting.
TRUMP:
I went up how many points? Look how much. They were—
BW:
The biggest thought is, how’s President Trump doing his foreign policy?
COMMENTARY: At that time this is what I believed the focus of my book would be.
TRUMP:
The single biggest mistake we made in the history of our country was going into the Middle East. We’ve spent $8 trillion—
BW:
Yeah. That’s Steve Bannon’s number. That’s inflated.
TRUMP:
I believe it.
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
I believe it. I don’t think they report the real numbers, okay, you want to know the truth. But we spent $8 trillion. It was seven when I first—it’s $8 trillion. Millions of people have been killed. Now, on our side, less. But overall millions of people. We’ve changed the face of Europe. [laughs]
BW:
Through immigration.
TRUMP:
Those people left the Middle East and they walked into Germany. And Angela was very nice, and she made the biggest mistake in the history of Germany when she took millions of people.
BW:
The Iraq war in many ways defines where we are now.
TRUMP:
Well, it wasn’t the Iraq war. Don’t forget, the Iraq war, which was a big mistake—it was a big mistake because in Iraq, they killed terrorists. Okay? Saddam Hussein killed terrorists. He had control. All of a sudden we’re spending massive amounts of money, and it’s totally—you know, just a mess. And I also think, why are we defending extraordinarily wealthy, successful nations for nothing?
BW:
So is the Rosetta Stone in this for you, instinct? Because that’s what you said last—
TRUMP:
Maybe—well, well, instinct is a very important ingredient in something, you know? I watched Bill Belichick kick a field goal when the team was dead, and they were like on the seven yard line, fourth down. And the score was I think 28 to three. And the first half was just about over. And Bill, I like him because he endorsed me strongly, okay?
BW:
Yes, I noticed.
TRUMP:
But Bill Belichick kicked a field goal instead of going for—when you’re 28 to three, 27, 28 to three with 10 seconds left, you’ve got to give it a shot. Most people would say, he kicked a field goal instead of trying to get a touchdown. You’d think he’d need a touchdown, right? He gets the field goal. So now he’s six. So it’s 28 to six. And I say, what kind of a call was that? And then they tie the game, and they win the game, right? That was two years ago, three years ago, against Atlanta. Okay? And I say, that was instinct. That was great instinct. Because—
BW:
Did you tell him that?
TRUMP:
Well, I tell him—he’s a friend of mine. Look, he’s a great guy. He endorsed me. You know I have often said, if you go to war, you take a great guy like a Belichick or you know, people that win. Because strategically, it’s not as different as you think. Do you understand?
BW:
I understand.
TRUMP:
And you get the generals, and you explain it to these guys that have to win on Sunday, otherwise they’re out of business, right? And some have done it for years. And some haven’t lasted for three weeks. Right? But, no, I think a lot of things are based on instinct. I’m here because of instinct. Because if you go with the things I said, everybody said I was wrong. When I said what do you have to lose to the African American audience as I read worst on crime, worst on housing ownership, worst on education, worst on this, worst on that—
BW:
Maybe the title of my book should be, what do we have to lose?
TRUMP:
—then I said, vote for me. What do we have to lose? Maybe. [laughs] Yeah, what do we have to lose? Don’t use that. Don’t use it. [laughter] I don’t like it.
BW:
Okay. You’re great to give me this time.
TRUMP:
No, but that is instinct. You know my people said, oh, that’s a terrible thing. No, but it was great.
BW:
History’s clock.
TRUMP:
Yeah. No, that’s very interesting.
BW:
History’s clock.
TRUMP:
Where did you hear that? Where is that—
BW:
It’s in Barbara Tuchman’s book. It’s a great book about World War I. Begins in 1910. Edward the Seventh has died. And there are nine kings coming to the funeral. And she writes, and Big Ben struck 9:00. And she said, but on history’s clock, the old order was dying in a blinding flash. And it did.
TRUMP:
Can I be honest? It’s true. And you know who some of—
BW:
It’s true. And the question is, is that what happened in 2016?
TRUMP:
Well, you know who some of the worst people are for me to deal with? If you said I just put in, I’ll have 182 judges and appellate judges and two Supreme Court judges in less than three years, right, and if you put somebody else’s name as president—anybody else—all of these lowlifes that are Republicans, the few remaining Never Trumpers. There aren’t too many. They’re on artificial resuscitation. Or they’re just—they can’t get over their sickness of some kind, you know? I don’t like to use the word jealous, because why should I say jealous? But if you said Bill Smith was the president and did all of the things I’ve done, they’d say he’s the greatest president that we’ve ever had. But they can’t say that because the hatred is so great. And I find that the Never Trumpers, in many cases, are worse than the Obama people and they’re worse than the—And just to finish, and then we’ll go on—
BW:
And I asked you last time, you didn’t want to answer—why do so many people hate you? Why are they so angry?
TRUMP:
Well, the love is equal to the hate, though.
BW:
Okay. Fair point. Fair point.
TRUMP:
I have the love that’s equaled—you know, the famous Fifth Avenue statement. Boom. Right?
BW:
[laughs] Where’d that come from? Was that instinct?
TRUMP:
Just—it was pure instinct. And it was well received, but not so well—But now they write it’s true.
COMMENTARY: At a 2016 campaign rally in Iowa, Trump said:
TRUMP:
I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters. Okay? It’s like incredible.
BW:
You know we have two Americas out there. You realize that? You are president of two Americas.
TRUMP:
Yeah, that’s true.
BW:
They are divided.
TRUMP:
That’s true.
BW:
Is it, in the end, not your job to try to bring them together?
TRUMP:
I would like to be able to do it. I would like to be able to do it.
BW:
Isn’t it your job now? Job one—
TRUMP:
I think the biggest problem I have—
BW:
—bring them back together.
TRUMP:
I think the biggest problem I have for doing that—I would love to do that. Because I’ve oftentimes said that—you remember when I put out the Christmas greeting where I said, Merry Christmas to all, even the haters? You know. But I would love to be able to do it. But the biggest problem is the media. The media is unbelievably dishonest. And it’s hard when you have a dishonest media. Because if that report didn’t open up people’s eyes, then nothing will. You understand that. The report from the incident.
BW:
Listen, that’s a great moment. But it’s not going to get you elected next year. But it’s a great moment to reform the FBI. It’s a public service, to come in and say, we’ve got to fix this.
TRUMP:
It’s a systemic problem, but it starts from the top. And it started with Mueller. And it started with Comey. And it’s with that whole group. Mueller was—by the way, how about Mueller’s performance in front of Congress? That went poof. [laughs] For two and a half years, right? And then—
BW:
You know what they always said about Mueller is if he finds that you did something quite trivial, he will indict you. If he finds something really serious, he can’t get there unless he’s got the goods. Unless he has tape recordings, unless he has—
